【主持斯朵尔】
It's less than a week since the release of the remaining living Israeli hostages, and the deal between Israel and Hamas is already being tested, with Israel carrying out air strikes after accusing Hamas of violating the ceasefire. That a ceasefire had been reached at all was a big surprise. It followed months of failed attempts to end the two-year war in Gaza, triggered by Hamas's October 7th attack.
自最后一批还活着的以色列人质获释，还不到一周，以色列与哈马斯之间的协议就已经面临考验——以色列在指控哈马斯违反停火协议后向加沙发动了空袭。达成停火协议本身就是一个巨大的意外，此前数月各方一直未能成功结束这场由哈马斯10月7日袭击引发的加沙两年战争。
The breakthrough came after President Trump deputized not two diplomats to move the negotiations along, but two businessmen: one a close friend, Steve Witkoff, the other his son-in-law, Jared Kushner—dealmakers who came up through the world of New York real estate.
和谈的突破发生在特朗普总统没有委派两名外交官，而是指派了两名商人推动谈判之后：一位是他的密友史蒂夫·威特科夫（Steve Witkoff），另一位是他的女婿贾里德·库什纳（Jared Kushner）——两人都是从纽约房地产界成长起来的交易撮合者。
>> I heard the president ask you what the chances were for success.
我听到总统问你成功的几率有多大。
【库什纳】
>> Yes. 是的。
【主持斯朵尔】
>> And you said？
你的回答是？
【库什纳】
100%. And he said, ‘Why do you feel so confident?’
And I said, “Well, we can't afford to fail.”
百分之百。然后他问：“你为什么这么有信心？”
我回答：“我们输不起。”
【威特科夫】
We just kept on thinking to ourselves, “This finish line—this finish line is about saving lives.”
我们一直提醒自己，这条终点线——达到这条终点线关乎拯救生命。
【主持斯朵尔】
Yes. Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner got to that finish line, they say, using the intensely personal techniques of real estate dealmakers, dangling presidential promises, protections, or punishments to get Israel and Hamas to agree.
威特科夫和库什纳表示，他们正是运用房地产交易中那种高度个人化的谈判技巧，用特朗普总统的承诺、保护或惩罚为筹码，促使以色列和哈马斯最终达成协议。
【女婿库什纳】
>> We wanted the hostages to come out. We wanted a real ceasefire that both sides would respect. We needed a way to bring humanitarian aid into the people. And then we had to write all these complex words to deal with the 50 years of stupid word games that everyone in that region is so used to playing. Both sides wanted the objective, and we just needed to find a way to help everyone get there.
>> 我们希望人质获释，希望达成一个双方都会尊重的真正停火协议，也需要找到办法向民众输送人道主义援助。此外，我们还得起草大量复杂的措辞，以应对该地区各方惯用的长达50年的文字游戏。双方都想要达成目标，我们只需要找到一条帮助所有人抵达终点的路径。
【主持斯朵尔】
>> Early September, Kushner, Witkoff, and negotiators from the Middle East were making headway on a ceasefire hostage deal when suddenly things went up in smoke. Israel fired missiles into Qatar to assassinate Hamas leadership. Oh my goodness.
>> 9月初，库什纳、威特科夫与中东谈判代表在人质停火协议上正取得良好进展，但突然之间局势急转直下。以色列向卡塔尔发射导弹，意图刺杀哈马斯领导人。天哪。
>> Six people were killed, including the son of Khalil al-Hayya, Hamas's top negotiator.
>> 六人遇难，其中包括哈马斯首席谈判代表哈利勒·阿·哈亚的儿子。
【中东特使威特科夫】
>> We woke up the next morning to find out that there had been this attack.
第二天早上醒来，我们才得知发生了这次袭击。
【主持斯朵尔】
>> Wow. 哇。
【中东特使威特科夫】
And of course, I was called by the president.
>> 当然，总统立刻给我打了电话。
【主持斯朵尔】
You had no idea, obviously.
>> 你们显然毫不知情。
【中东特使威特科夫】
None whatsoever. You know, I think both Jared and I felt—we just felt a little bit betrayed.
完全不知情。我和贾里德都觉得——我们感到有点被背叛了。
【主持斯朵尔】
Now, I had heard that the president was furious.
我听说总统当时非常愤怒。
【女婿库什纳】
>> I think he felt like the Israelis were getting a little bit out of control in what they were doing and that it was time to be very strong and stop them from doing things that he felt were not in their long-term interests.
>> 我觉得他认为以色列人的行动有点失控，是时候强硬出手，阻止他们做出不符合自身长期利益的事情。
【主持斯朵尔】
People should understand that Netanyahu, the Israelis, bombed the peacemakers—bombed the negotiating team.
人们应该明白：内塔尼亚胡领导下的以色列，轰炸了和平推动者——炸毁了谈判团队。
【中东特使威特科夫】
>> And by the way, Leslie, it had a metastasizing effect because the Qataris were critical to the negotiation, as were the Egyptians and the Turks. And we had lost the confidence of the Qataris。
>> And so Hamas went underground, and it was very, very difficult to get to them.
顺便说一句，莱斯利，这件事产生了扩散效应，因为卡塔尔人对谈判至关重要，埃及人和土耳其人也是如此。我们失去了卡塔尔人的信任。
>> 于是哈马斯转入地下，我们很难再联系上他们。
【主持斯朵尔】
And they were your link to Hamas.
>> 而卡塔尔人正是你们与哈马斯之间的联络渠道。
【中东特使威特科夫】
Absolutely.
>> 绝对是。
【主持斯朵尔】
You were dealing through the Qataris to make your proposals to Hamas,
你们通过卡塔尔人向哈马斯提出方案，
【中东特使威特科夫】
and it became very, very evident as to how important and how critical that role was.
这让我们非常清楚地意识到卡塔尔角色的重要性和关键性。
【主持斯朵尔】
>> But there was something that happened that brought the Qataris back in, and that was this phone call that I think President Trump actually forced Netanyahu to make to the Qataris.
但后来发生了一件事，让卡塔尔人重新回到谈判桌前，那就是我认为特朗普总统实际上迫使内塔尼亚胡向卡塔尔人打的那个电话。
【中东特使威特科夫】
>> I wouldn't call it forced.
我不会用 “强迫” 这个词
>>
>>
>>
【主持斯朵尔】
>> You wouldn't? 你不会？
【中东特使威特科夫】
No, I would—I would say
不会的，我会说，嗯
【主持斯朵尔】
Looked that way
像是强迫哟，
【中东特使威特科夫】
I would—I would say
不会的，我会说，嗯
【女婿库什纳】
He is becoming a diplomat.
他正在变成一名外交官了。
【主持斯朵尔】
Realy？真的啊？
whether the president himself knew of the attack in advance or not, he wanted Netanyahu to apologize to the Qataris.
无论总统本人是否事先知晓那次袭击，他都希望内塔尼亚胡向卡塔尔人道歉。
>> The apology needed to happen. It just did. We were not moving forward without that apology. And the president said to him, “People apologize.”
>> 道歉必须发生，这是必然的。没有这个道歉，我们就无法继续推进。总统对他说：“人都会道歉。”
【主持斯朵尔】
And so on September 29th, the president held the phone while Netanyahu read a scripted apology from the Oval Office.
于是9月29日，总统亲自拿着电话，让内塔尼亚胡在白宫总统办公室照稿宣读了道歉声明。
Trump was now directly engaged. He gave Qatar a new security guarantee
>> Mr. 特朗普先生如今直接介入。他向卡塔尔提供了新的安全保证，
【特朗普】
So today is a historical day for peace.
今天是和平的一个历史日子
【主持斯朵尔】
and introduced his own peace plan, calling for an immediate ceasefire and release of all remaining Israeli hostages all at once.
并且还动手弄了一个自己的和平计划，要求立即全面停火并一次性释放所有剩余的以色列人质。
【中东特使威特科夫】
其核心理念是说服各方：那20名在世的以色列人质对哈马斯而言已不再是资产，而是负担。
The notion was to convince everybody that those 20 Israeli hostages who were alive were no longer assets for Hamas. They were a liability.
【主持斯朵尔】
>> How did they become a liability and not their sort of bargaining chip?
>> 他们怎么就从谈判筹码变成了负担呢？
【女婿库什纳】
>> What did Hamas gain by keeping these hostages? You had tens of thousands of Palestinians who were killed in these wars. Uh, you have half of Gaza—or more than half of it—is absolutely destroyed. And so what's been the game?
哈马斯继续扣押这些人质能得到什么？这场战争已造成数万名巴勒斯坦人死亡，加沙一半以上——甚至超过一半——的土地被彻底摧毁。那么哈马斯还在图什么呢？
【主持斯朵尔】
But Hamas was still reluctant.
但哈马斯他们仍然犹豫不决。
【女婿库什纳】
>> Hamas's worst nightmare in the deal would be that Israel withdrew to the agreed-upon line, Hamas released all the hostages, and then once that occurred, Israel just resumed the war and went back to going after them.
>> 对哈马斯而言，这个停战和平交易的最可怕的噩梦是：以色列撤回到约定停战线，哈马斯释放所有人质。一旦人质释放，以色列随即重启战争，继续追杀他们。
【主持斯朵尔】
>> To reassure Hamas, President Trump gave Kushner and Witkoff permission to talk directly with the terrorists—a big break with diplomatic protocol. On October 8th, the two landed in Egypt to deliver a message from President Trump to Al-Hayya, Hamas's top negotiator.
>> 为打消哈马斯的顾虑，特朗普总统授权库什纳和威特科夫直接与恐怖分子对话——这打破了外交惯例。10月8日，两人抵达埃及，向哈马斯首席谈判代表哈亚（Al-Hayya）传达特朗普总统的信息。
【中东特使威特科夫】
>> The president said, “We will stand behind this deal. We will not allow the terms of this deal for any party to be violated.”
>>
>> 总统说：“我们将全力支持这项协议，绝不允许任何一方违反协议条款。”
【女婿库什纳】
And both sides will be treated fairly.
>> 双方都将得到公平对待。
【中东特使威特科夫】
So we got into the room. The lead negotiator was sitting right next to me.
我们走进房间，哈马斯首席谈判代表就坐在我旁边。
【主持斯朵尔】
>> That negotiator was in Doha when the Israelis struck.
>> 那位谈判代表当时正在多哈，以色列发动了袭击。
【中东特使威特科夫】
>> Correct.
没错。
【主持斯朵尔】
He survived, but his son was killed. Is that right?
他幸存了下来，但他的儿子遇难了，是这样吗？
>>
【中东特使威特科夫】
That's right. And we expressed our condolences to him for the loss of his son. He mentioned it, and I told him that I had lost a son and that we were both members of a really bad club—parents who had buried children.
>>
是的。我们对他丧子之痛表示慰问。他提到了这件事，我告诉他我也失去了一个儿子，我们都属于一个非常不幸的群体——白发人送黑发人的父母。
【主持斯朵尔】
>> Witkoff's son Andrew died of an opioid overdose at the age of 22.
威特科夫的儿子安德鲁22岁时死于阿片类药物过量。
【女婿库什纳】
When Steve and him spoke about their sons, it turned from a negotiation with a terrorist group to seeing two human beings kind of showing a vulnerability with each other.
>> 当史蒂夫和他谈及各自的儿子时，这场与恐怖组织的谈判变成了两个普通人彼此袒露脆弱情感的时刻。
【主持斯朵尔】
>> Is it true that once the deal was agreed to, the Israelis there at that meeting and the Qataris began to hug each other?
> 协议达成后，现场的以色列人和卡塔尔人真的开始互相拥抱了吗？
【中东特使威特科夫】
>> Absolutely. And I thought to myself, I wish the world could have seen it.
确实如此。我当时心想，真希望全世界都能看到这一幕。
【主持斯朵尔】
The deal allowed members of Hamas to stay in Gaza and called on Israel to release nearly 2,000 Palestinians, including some convicted terrorists. Once the ceasefire went into effect, Hamas was given 72 hours to free the Israeli hostages. Kushner and Witkoff waited nervously.
协议允许哈马斯成员留在加沙，并要求以色列释放近2000名巴勒斯坦人，其中包括一些已被定罪的恐怖分子。停火生效后，哈马斯有72小时释放以色列人质。库什纳和威特科夫紧张地等待着。
>> So, you decide to go to Gaza.
>> Mhm.
>> And what did you see?
>> 所以你们决定去加沙？
>> 嗯。
>> 你们看到了什么？
【女婿库什纳】
那里看起来就像被核弹炸过一样。然后你看到人们开始返回。我问：“他们要去哪儿？”环顾四周，到处都是废墟。他们告诉我：“他们要回到自己被毁的家园原址，在自己的地块上搭个帐篷。”这让人非常难过，因为你意识到，他们真的无处可去了。
It looked almost like a nuclear bomb had been set off in that area. And then you see these people moving back. And I asked, “Where are they going?” Like, I'm looking around. These are all ruins. And they said, “Well, they're going back to the areas where their destroyed home was, onto their plot, and they're going to pitch a tent.” And it's very sad because you think to yourself, they really have nowhere else to go.
【主持斯朵尔】
>> Would you say now, having been there, that it was genocide?
既然你亲自去过那里，现在你会说那是种族灭绝吗？
【女婿库什纳】
>> No. No.
>>
>> 不，绝不。
【中东特使威特科夫】
Absolutely not. No. No. There was a war being fought.
绝对不是。那里发生的是战争。
【主持斯朵尔】
>> So that very night you go to Hostage Square, where the families of the hostages have been protesting, mourning, being very frustrated, angry sometimes—and every time you mention President Trump,
就在那个晚上，你们去了人质广场，那里的人质家属一直在抗议、哀悼，常常感到沮丧，有时甚至愤怒——而每次你提到特朗普总统，
【中东特使威特科夫】
To president Donald J Trump
I had to stop because they were cheering. >> 他们都欢呼雀跃。
【广场群众】
>> Thank you. Trump. Thank You, Trump.
【主持斯朵尔】
But then you've tried to thank Netanyahu. Yeah. And...
但当你试图感谢内塔尼亚胡时，
【中东特使威特科夫】
To Benjeman Netanyahu
【主持斯朵尔】
every time you said his name, they booed.
>> 谢谢。每次一提他的名字，他们就发出嘘声。
【中东特使威特科夫】
>> Look, that's how they feel. I don't feel that way. And I thought he steered his country through some really difficult circumstances.
>> 看，那是他们的感受。我个人并不这么认为。我觉得他在极其艰难的局势中带领国家走了过来。
【主持斯朵尔】
>> People think that he prolonged the incarceration of the hostages for his own political future.
人们认为他为了自己的政治前途而拖延人质获释。
【中东特使威特科夫】
Yeah, I don't—I don't think that's the case.
我不这么认为——我觉得事实并非如此。
【女婿库什纳】
>> October 7th for me was a shattering day. Since then, my heart has not been complete.
>> 对我来说，10月7日是令人心碎的一天。从那以后，我的心就再也没有完整过。
>>
【主持斯朵尔】
But then Kushner brought up the Gazans—
但库什纳也提到了加沙民众
to see the suffering and for the people in Gaza who, for most of them, were experiencing this through no fault of their own.
>> ——要看到他们的苦难，因为大多数加沙人都是无辜受难。
【女婿库什纳】
The biggest message that we've tried to convey to the Israeli leadership now is that now that the war is over, if you want to integrate Israel with the broader Middle East, you have to find a way to help the Palestinian people thrive and do better.
我们现在试图向以色列领导人传达的最重要信息是：战争已经结束，如果你们希望以色列融入更广阔的中东，就必须找到办法帮助巴勒斯坦人民繁荣发展、生活得更好。
【主持斯朵尔】
>> how are you doing with that message?
你们打算如何落实这一信息？
【女婿库什纳】
>> We're just getting started.
我们才刚刚开始。
【主持斯朵尔】
>> How sure are you that what you've accomplished so far is going to stick?
你有多大把握，目前取得的成果能够持续下去？
【女婿库什纳】
>> First of all, it's the Middle East, so everyone complains about everything.
首先，这里是中东，所有人都在抱怨一切。
【主持斯朵尔】
One worrisome issue: whether Hamas is dragging its feet in returning the remains of deceased Israeli hostages.
Are you saying publicly right now that Hamas is acting in good faith, seriously looking for the bodies?
一个令人担忧的问题是：哈马斯是否在拖延归还已故以色列人质遗体。 你现在是否公开表示哈马斯是在真诚行事，认真寻找遗体？
【女婿库什纳】
>> As far as we've seen from what's being conveyed to us from the mediators, they are—so far. That could break down at any minute, but right now, we have seen them looking to honor their agreement.
根据调解方传达给我们的信息，到目前为止他们是的。尽管随时可能破裂，但眼下我们确实看到他们在努力履行协议。
【主持斯朵尔】
Another flash point: the number of trucks Israel is allowing to enter Gaza with desperately needed food, medicine, and other aid. Then there are several issues that were kicked down the road, left unresolved—like the extent of Israeli troop withdrawal, the need to establish an international peacekeeping mechanism, a functional government in Gaza, and most urgently, when and how Hamas will disarm.
另一个爆发点是以色列允许进入加沙运送急需食品、药品和其他援助物资的卡车数量。此外，还有几个被搁置的问题尚未解决，例如以军撤军的程度、建立国际维和机制的必要性、加沙功能性政府的组建，以及最紧迫的问题：哈马斯何时、以何种方式解除武装。
Hamas now is using weapons to execute people that they perceive as their enemies in Gaza. And they're also using their weapons to reestablish themselves as the entity that is governing Gaza. They're moving into the vacuum.
哈马斯目前正在使用武器处决他们认定为敌人的加沙民众，同时也利用武器重新确立自己作为加沙统治实体的地位。他们正在填补权力真空。
【女婿库什纳】
>> Hamas right now is doing exactly what you would expect a terrorist organization to do, which is to try to reconstitute and take back their positions.
>> 哈马斯目前所做的，正是人们预料中一个恐怖组织会做的事：试图重组并夺回原有地位。
>> The success or failure of this will be if Israel and this international mechanism is able to create a viable alternative. If they are successful, Hamas will fail and Gaza will not be a threat to Israel in the future.
>> 此举成败的关键在于以色列和国际机制能否建立一个可行的替代方案。如果成功，哈马斯将失败，加沙未来也不会再对以色列构成威胁。
【主持斯朵尔】
The eventual rebuilding of Gaza will be a monumental project. That the two businessmen running the negotiations have deep financial ties in the Middle East, specifically in Qatar, has raised ethical concerns.
加沙的最终重建将是一项浩大工程。而负责谈判的这两位商人与中东——尤其是卡塔尔——有着深厚的商业联系，这引发了伦理方面的担忧。
>> So you have both done a lot of business with the Gulf States—billions and billions of dollars worth of business—and you've done some of the business while this negotiation has gone on. Um, and that has raised some issues of conflict. I mean, some blurring of a line between what you're doing in terms of foreign policy and benefiting financially from what's going on.
>> 你们两位都与海湾国家有大量商业往来——价值数百亿美元的生意——而且有些交易是在此次谈判期间进行的。这引发了一些利益冲突问题，也就是说，你们在外交政策上的行动与从中获取的经济利益之间界限有些模糊。
【女婿库什纳】
>> Yeah. So, first of all, Leslie, nobody's pointed out any instances where Steve or I have pursued any policies or done anything that have not been in the interests of America. Um, number two,
是的。首先，莱斯利，没人指出我和史蒂夫有任何行为或政策不符合美国利益。其次，
【主持斯朵尔】
but perception.
是“观感”问题。
【女婿库什纳】
>> But, Liz, we can't spend our time focused on perception as much as we have to focus on the facts. We're here to do good. These are impossible tasks. And because this is important, I've volunteered my time to help the president and Steve try to make progress. But Steve nor I will be involved in awarding contracts or figuring out who does business in Gaza after.
>>
>> 但莉兹，我们不能把时间花在“观感”上，而必须专注于事实。我们在这里是为了做好事，这些任务几乎不可能完成。正因如此重要，我才自愿投入时间协助总统和史蒂夫推动进展。但无论是史蒂夫还是我，都不会参与授标合同或决定战后谁能在加沙做生意。
【中东特使威特科夫】
>> Well, from my standpoint, Leslie, I'm not in business anymore.
从我的角度来看，莱斯利，我已经不再经商了。
>>
>>
【主持斯朵尔】
>> But your family is.
但你的家人还在经商。
【中东特使威特科夫】
But I've divested. Like Jared, I receive no salary and I pay all my own expenses.
但我已经剥离了相关资产。和贾里德一样，我不领薪水，所有开销都自己承担。
【主持斯朵尔】
>> This has become an issue—这已成为一个问题
【女婿库什纳】
what people call conflicts of interest. Steve and I call experience and trusted relationships that we have throughout the world. If Steve and I didn't have these deep relationships, the deal that we were able to help get done—that freed these hostages—would not have occurred.
>> ——人们称之为“利益冲突”。而我和史蒂夫称之为“经验”和“我们在全球建立的信任关系”。如果没有这些深厚的关系，我们就不可能促成这项协议，这些人质也就无法获释。
【主持斯朵尔】
>> This past Monday, the Israeli hostages, all 20, were home in Israel. Families marveling with joy, disbelief, emotions so deep it hurt.
>> 上周一，全部20名人质都回到了以色列家中。家属们沉浸在喜悦与难以置信之中，情感之深，令人痛彻心扉。
Steve, how were you feeling when they came up?
史蒂夫，当他们获释时你是什么感受？
【中东特使威特科夫】
>> Elated. Elated. And I was thinking to myself, what would I have felt like when I got the call from Cedars-Sinai Hospital that my son had died—if the call from them was “he didn't die? We revived him”? And these people were all getting that type of call. Their kids were coming home.
>> 兴奋，无比兴奋。我当时在想，当年我接到西达赛奈医疗中心电话说儿子去世时，如果那通电话说的是“他没死，我们救活了他”，我会是什么感觉？而现在，这些人都接到了那样的电话——他们的孩子回家了。
【主持斯朵尔】
But less than a week after their return, the ceasefire is under strain and the dealmakers are back in the region trying to keep things from unraveling.
但就在他们回国不到一周，停火协议再次承压，这些协议促成者又回到了该地区，努力防止局势再度崩溃。
【结语】
Is Ukraine next up for the dealmakers? That answer, plus watch the extended interview with Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff at 60inutovertime.com.
乌克兰会是这些谈判者下一个目标吗？欲知答案，请观看贾里德·库什纳与史蒂夫·威特科夫的完整访谈，访问 60inutovertime.com。